Ep 131 - Finding the new limits of wood design

Intro (00:07):
Timber Talks is brought to you by WoodSolutions. Stay up to date with the latest in timber, the building material that is strong, safe, and sustainable. Here is your host Adam Jones.

Adam Jones (00:19):
There are some pioneers out there on the cutting edge, pushing the boundaries of what's possible in timber design. Today we're speaking to one of them, Robert Jackson, who's a partner at Fast and Epp, and this is a company pioneering the field of timber construction. So in this episode, we go wide and deep. I absolutely loved it. We spoke about what are some of the projects he's been a part of previously, things like the Brock Commons Building, which you might've heard Karl Fraser on the podcast previously. And what about the prospects of the post and plate system? What's happening there previous and where is it going in the future? And finally, we went a bit deep on a 10-storey commercial office building in a seismic region. Now this was quite a crazy awesome-sounding lateral stability system, which I found really interesting. So I think you're going to enjoy this episode. So without any further ado, here is my conversation with Robert Jackson.
(01:11):
Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Robert, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and Fast & Epp

Robert Jackson (01:17):
Yeah, well, thanks for having me, Adam. It's nice to be on here and to speak with you. About myself, I grew up on Vancouver Island, not too far from the ferry terminal and not too far from Victoria there. And my father was a carpenter, so he had a company called Jackson Woodworking, which was basically, we made doors and windows and high end fine woodworking stuff, some furniture. So I grew up there and spent a lot of my time in that shop, which was at our home property and built lots of furniture and the season in my teens, tried to sell some furniture and everything. And yeah, I just really established a real love of the craftsmanship with wood. I worked in a few joinery shops since then, and then sort of found myself doing a bit of firefighting, and then I went into uni. Basically I went into civil engineering technology at Coulson College, which is a smaller community college that's very practically driven, very driven in terms of education that spits you out and makes you a technician and ready to crank through projects.
(02:22):
So it was a really good basis for my engineering career to start there. And then I bridged over to the University of British Columbia to finish two years of a master's degree there, or two years of a bachelor's degree rather. Then I went straight into practice, so I went straight into engineering here at Fast and Epp, and I've been born and raised here and worked here for nearly 12 years. I'm a partner now, so I'm one of the three owners of the company. And I spend most of my time on just being in the trenches, leading and designing and being the engineer of record for mass timber projects. So many of my projects have been wild rides and fun adventures, but I think the most pivotal one in my career to date was the UBC Tall Woodhouse 18 story tall wood structure at the time, the tallest timber building in the world.
(03:14):
I was, I think three years into my career when I had that sucker land on my desk and had to just chew through that. And that was a really amazing experience to build on some smaller wood schools that I had done in the past and really take it to the next level. So yeah, since that project been working on many, many more exciting commissions with Fast and Epp, and it's been a wonderful journey of, I think just really good mentorship, really good opportunity being met with strong ambition. So that has led me down some exciting trails and pursuing many, many more projects now and excited to have 25, 30 years left in the tank to keep going. In terms of the firm that I work for here at Fast and Epp, we're about 35, 40 years, almost 40 years in business. And so we're doing about half our revenue from the US and half from Canada, and we're really primarily focused on structural engineering. We have a operation in Germany as well in Esad and Kart. We have about 50 people over there and they do some really great work on mostly concrete schools and rec centers, but also getting really into the timber game in that last couple of years. So our operation here is focused on Canada and the US and then over there in Germany, 50 people working there.

Adam Jones (04:38):
And you mentioned the UBC building, is that the Brock Commons?

Robert Jackson (04:41):
Yeah, exactly.

Adam Jones (04:43):
And you've got one of the strongest brands when it comes to engineering. What are some of the cultural things you try and focus on that fits what we need in construction today and what are the sort of skill sets that your team needs for mass timber that isn't required in traditional construction?

Robert Jackson (04:57):
Yeah, I mean, culture's a really interesting one. Every firm has their culture, and I'd say ours has largely been established by the founder. So Paul Fast and Jerry Epp for many, many years we're a dynamic duo that pioneered a lot of projects. I use that word carefully pioneering. I think if you look back to what has happened in Vancouver here as really the nucleus of a mass timber movement across North America, a lot of that is credited to some really talented designers in the city, which of course includes Paul and Jerry, but it also goes beyond them. There's some really amazing architects and engineers in this city that have really expanded across Canada and down south of the border. So every firm has its culture, but I think those two really started it, and it's a culture of adventure, like structural design for adventure, some architects or if you really want to think outside the box and really start to pioneer something, that's really where we start to shine.
(05:56):
We do have just bread and butter work that keeps the cashflow going, keeps the lights on, and there's certainly joy that you can find in those projects as well. But there's a culture of challenging convention here really trying to establish is there a new or better way to do things? And for many years, if there was a three or four story office building that came up in mass timber, we would get a phone call and that's great, but now that's not necessarily the case because there's many, many talented engineers out there that can do a three four story office building and the competition market has just changed. We're always looking ahead as to what's the next thing in mass timber and trying to be forward thinking in that respect and really advance the structural profession. So it's a culture of just thirst for trying something new.
(06:46):
And we really also just trying to instill in our engineers a real true actual love of design. Really good architecture and good design is I'd say in our blood that there's a real appreciation for it. And so when an architect is trying to achieve a certain expression or a metaphor or some sort of real end goal in their design, we want to be able to propel that, propel their imagination and not just say no and stuff them down. There's lots of relationships between architects and engineers where they just battle and all engineers do is say, no, you can't do that. You're drawing something that's held up by Sky hooks or whatever. And I think that's incredibly damaging to good design. There's a way to do that, of course, and to you have to sometimes, but I think if you can create a mutual respect and a mutual empathy with architects where the structure is the architecture and it's exposed and you're really empathetic to their process and what they're trying to achieve in their vision, that's when we have the most fun. And that's how we want our engineers to work. We want them to enjoy the projects and the commissions that we bring in. And it's important to me that this is a really true love of craft and design here. We do more than just size beams and columns and rebar. We're not talc monkeys. We try to really meet the design there so that we all really enjoy what we do more. And I would hope our clients would feel the same, but it's one of those things that culture's always evolving. But yeah,

Adam Jones (08:28):
There's a few projects we'll speak about today, but one of them is the Brock Commons building, and it's a post and plate system. It sort of blew the socks off the world at how fast it was constructed. I think it was two floors a week or something like that. I've had Karl Frazier on the podcast previously as well to talk about this, but it didn't take off perhaps the person plate as quickly and fast as it should given what the stats were on that project. So I guess why was

Robert Jackson (08:56):
That? Yeah, I mean, that was the big nut to crack, right on that project. I remember we had 64 gravity options and we were doing the classic engineer thing, let's make a matrix through all the ideas, and then one day it really clicked like, boom, let's use the fiber in both directions and post and plate it. And yeah, it was just like a raving success. And it's funny you mentioned that because I too have felt the same. We finished it in I think 2016 and there's been a few points supported CLT projects since then, but for a while it kind of stalled and there's various reasons for that. I think market opportunity being the main one, I mean, it's a system that's suited for multi-unit residential, which is largely developer driven. And so believe me, we tried for a long, long time and we didn't really get a ton of traction on post and panel type concepts until maybe like five years ago, six years ago.
(09:56):
And now I'd say we've got 15 projects or so running with that very system that's been refined since, and we've actually got one going vertical right now, which is a 12 story student residence project at BCIT. It's called the BCIT Tall Timber Student Housing. And there's three distinct changes that we made to that concept. We, number one, use wider panels because the manufacturing process has changed and there's more players in the market, we can now have access to wider billets, which means we have wider column spacing. We changed the columns from wood to steel, so now we're using HSS six inch by six inch sections that are easily back framed into steel stud party walls and fire rated. And we're using steel brace frame cores instead of concrete jump form course. So that has been a really successful project as well. The BCIT tall timber, which is, as I mentioned, going vertical right now as of March, 2024.
(10:56):
And we've got about, I think 10 or 15 other very real projects. There's another 18 story downtown Vancouver that's in the ground right now with that same system, and we've had several in the US go. So it's been really exciting to see it finally actually take grip and traction. We really believe that the post and panel system is the only way to do economical mass timber in multiunit res at height that can compete with concrete. Maybe it's still in the range of three to 5% more expensive depending on the cost of concrete of the day and cost of form work. But we've been able successfully across different markets, different regions, different times where there material prices are higher or lower to get that thing to pencil out. So we're huge advocates of post panel and we really believe it's the way forward for multiunit residential housing systems.
(11:56):
So much so that we actually deployed a research project here under our r and d company concept lab. We just finished a $1.1 million testing program, which is basically aiming to codify that system so that every engineer in Canada can simply open the book, find the equations on how to deal with rolling shear and screw reinforcing for rolling shear in CLT panels such that they can ultimately design it because we need to get this system in the heads of more and more consultancies across the world. And so we are basically just wrapping up a big big testing program that did over 300 breaks, a ton of analytical research and providing over statistically robust data set to the code committee to evaluate and in the hope in the hopes of getting those equations into the code so more people can do it. Yeah, big believer in that.

Adam Jones (12:54):
Yeah, it's incredible research you're doing and building IP that is taking the industry forward. So I really commend you on that.

Robert Jackson (13:01):
Yeah, it's good to try and have an open-source posture. I think there's lots of work to go around. There's lots of really amazing talented engineers and architects out there. In large part concept lab is trying to treat things in an open-source posture. Our core purpose is to advance structural design and advance the profession. So we need to be real about that and share our results with the community.

Adam Jones (13:24):
It seems one of the major value props for the post and plate system is the speed of construction and to actually model in the speed of construction appropriately, you need to have a quantity surveyor to actually be there to do it in the right way. So what is the importance of partnering with the right quantity surveyor to basically demonstrate the advantages here? Guess it goes to the wider project team as well. Do you constantly need the same project team to continue on the post and plate system, or can you actually go to new consultants?

Robert Jackson (13:56):
Yeah, I think the pitch for mass timber has changed over the years. It was a real grind in the early seasons, 2014, 2015 to really get owners convinced to go with a mass timber solution. And so yeah, it's certainly evolved and every owner is different in terms of what their objectives are and why they would choose to do something specifically. We work with tons of different owners, tons of tenant architects and developers and quantity surveyors. And the teams are always different. I think there's a lot of emphasis put on quantity surveyors sometimes to do out the analysis and see what's the most competitive, and they do provide an excellent service and when they're good, they're great. And when a CM is on board or general contractors on board doing a similar thing with real time trade pricing, that's fantastic. It can really help give the owner some comfort.
(14:52):
But what I've really come to learn is everybody says, oh yeah, bring on a GC or bring on your supplier or bring on a quantity surveyor early. But what I've really come to understand is it really lies with the owner or the owner's rep. And having a good owner's rep is in my mind where the great projects have really come together and they've worked to have the stars aligned, get the right team together in terms of designers and also be willing to make decisions when you don't have a thousand percent information. You can't do four designs all the way down to the end screw and then make your decision on which one is best. So it does require some shrewd decision making and leadership of the team from an owner's rep standpoint. And when those players have been sharks and really sharp operators like it was on UVC Tallwood House, that guy never gets any credit.
(15:56):
But Dave English, who was the real owner's rep behind UVC Tallwood House is a huge reason why that project was a success is because he was the sharp operator making tough decisions and not having the design team have to spin their wheels and allowing us to just like boom, boom, boom, move forward. And that's happened to me since as well. There's been some really, really good owners reps that have made the difference, and that's just maybe a different perspective than what you typically hear, but that's what I've learned with the pitch over the years, that quantity surveyors and CMS and stuff are great. They can provide the costing, but the people who review the costing and make the decisions are really making or breaking a lot of these projects. So to the good owners reps out there, I really appreciate you.

Adam Jones (16:49):
So it seems like if you've got two horses in the race and you're focusing on cost comparison specifically and comparing it to concrete, the irony is you've got to have two horses in the race, and there isn't a direct comparison necessarily between the concrete and mass timber option. They come from two different paradigms.

Robert Jackson (17:07):
Exactly. Yeah. It sort of takes away from the opportunity to refine, refine, refine, and creates a really special design that really sings. If you're always hedging your bets and hedging your bets, it's like it's really hard to move forward.

Adam Jones (17:21):
Yeah. So tell us about some of the most cutting edge projects that you've currently got on the table right now.

Robert Jackson (17:26):
Yeah, I think the projects have changed over the years, of course, and we've got a couple exciting ones, maybe just to list off a few, but the Walmart Home office campus in Bentonville, Arkansas is north of 2 million square feet of three and four and five story office buildings and all these amenity buildings. The total development I think is north of four and a half million square feet, tons of mass timber in there. And that project is really just looking at using mass timber at scale, efficiency, efficiency, efficiency for commercial office, 30 foot by 30 foot grid. And that's a whole story in and of itself, but that's been a huge project that's run through our firm for nearly nine years now, and it's really just coming to completion. So that's an exciting one that we're working on. I mentioned BCIT, tall Timber Student housing, which is the next gen UBC, broad commons, so that's going vertical right now.
(18:18):
I mentioned that earlier. Another exciting one we're working on thinking beyond the mass timber multi-unit, res and multiunit, or sorry, commercial office rather is like long timber, so cantilever stadiums, ice rinks, soccer arenas, that type of thing. And so we're working on the p and e amphitheater, which is a 105 meter timber arch structure. It'll be the longest timber arch in the world, deep, deep in design on that. And that's really pushing the limits of what timber can do in terms of long span stuff. So we're really keenly hunting airports and yeah, can't deliver pitches. And we've got another soccer stadium going, so super psyched about that. But yeah, the big one in town here right now is Keith Drive, where it's known as the Hive, which is a really exciting project. And one near and dear to my heart, it's been seven years on this job so far, and we're just getting out of the hole now and we've topped off the podium slab and we're starting to go vertical with the timber.
(19:22):
So maybe just to share a bit about that project specifically, it's a 10 story commercial office building. So three bars if you can envision a plan, basically three bars running left right with the middle bar full of washroom and elevators and stair cores and conference rooms and drop ceiling kind of back of house stuff. And then in the outer bars you just got open office basically, and it's all right close to the glass. So for that 30 foot bay, you've got really high day lighting, you've got a lovely, I think 16 foot floor to floor 4.2 meters, and it's just a really, really clean expression in terms of three bar layout that allows for lots of density of desks around the outside and then the cluster of back of house stuff in the middle bar. So it's a really strong architectural layout. It's a very simple building, and it's, as I mentioned, commercial office, so it's going to be leased up and they're currently sort of wrapping up that leasing agreement, but for the ownership group that is behind it, a big driver as to why they went with sustainable mass timber solution is really just that the sustainability driver, they enjoy the aesthetic benefits of course, and I think that all speaks for itself.
(20:40):
But when you find these more courageous owners who are really willing to put their money where their mouth is with respect to sustainability and concern for the built environment, it really does matter. And you have to be willing to put your wallet down, convince yourself that you can pay that premium. No doubt there's a big premium for this building over a steel or concrete alternative. Vancouver is a concrete town. There's a lot of concrete office buildings here, so it's a lovely timber structure from the podium slab up. There's a whole underground parking structure and then a podium with a coffee shop and loading bay and all that. But up above level two, it's comprised of glue, lamb columns, perimeter glue, lamb beams around the outside, then flush interior steel beams, and then nine ply CLT, and then basically concrete topping on top of that. And that basically concludes the gravity system.
(21:42):
So you can imagine around the outside there's this drop beam, but on the inside it's all flush services, so there's no obstruction at those central two girder lines to get in the way of mechanical or electrical. And it's similar to a delta beam option. And we did price out delta beam, but we ended up just going with an HSS with a plate welded on the bottom because it's cheaper and simpler and more open in terms of procurement for a non-proprietary service. It also doesn't require the concrete to engage composites. So we're huge fans of beam list systems or only using drop beams around the perimeter to just get out of the way of all the mechanical stuff. So all the VAVs and all that stuff is in the middle, and that creates a really clean gravity frame and a really nice canvas to basically do tis on.
(22:35):
We are skipping every panel. If you can envision a floor panels with nine ply, we go nine ply, three ply, nine ply, three ply, nine ply, three ply, and these three ply’s create these little service chases every three meters. So you have this recess that you can put sprinklers, lights, speakers, ducks, all that stuff, and acoustic attenuations acoustic panels in these little strips. So that's a nice little touch. I think that forces the teon improvements to be pretty slick and aligned. But what's really exciting about the hive, aside from just a good clean gravity frame is the lateral system. The lateral system is comprised of timber braced bays around the perimeter and four internal CLT shear walls. So 47 meters tall, so it's the tallest timber brace bay or CLT shear wall project in North America. And I think amongst those in the world there, there's a couple timber brace bay buildings that are certainly up there.
(23:34):
Of course, there's one down in Australia I think in Brisbane, and then there's the treat building in Bergen, Norway that's got long timber braces, and there's a few in Norway as well. So it's certainly not the tallest, but what I think is quite unique is that it's definitely the tallest in North America and it's the tallest and high seismic region. The complexities with mass timber lateral systems are immense, particularly when you're talking this to also timber as a material needs to stay elastic, right? It doesn't dissipate energy through any yielding like it does in steel. So the whole building is outfitted with supplementary energy dissipating devices, which are basically dampers, but the end of every brace there's a damper, and at the bottom of the shear walls, there's dampers at the hold downs. And these dampers can be tuned for both force and displacement, but separately, which makes them really, really advantageous when you're trying to design a building where you need to tune each damper up the height of the building for uniform yielding.
(24:46):
So we did a full what's called performance-based design in the us or a non-linear time history analysis, which is where you do more borehole, you get a Geotech to determine the appropriate ground motions, so previous earthquake recordings that you should be applying to the building. So you're basically applying time histories of acceleration curves from past earthquakes to the building in different sets and tuning up your building for that to get a much more accurate representation rather than the simple method in the code, which is to idealize those accelerations as forces. So we did a whole one year process with peer reviews and a whole panel and a bunch of PhDs and combing through the job, and it was a real eye opening adventure to go through that non-linear analysis. But what has resulted, I think is a really, really special project in the structural engineering community, and I hope people do consider it that way just in terms of it, it really pushing the limits of what mass timber can do in a high seismic region, the big reason why that happened on this project, why would a commercial office with some developer behind it or an older behind it choose to do such a radical system or really push things?
(26:11):
So far, the real reason is we were given funding through the National Resources Council of Canada, I think up to three and a half million there. And then we got some supplementary funding from Forestry Innovation Investment and other provincial bodies that just allowed us to really push the limits of what Mass timber can do. That was the purpose of the funding, and we thought there's lots of mountains we can climb here with UBC, we got similar funding and we did the post and panel concept, but at the Hive we thought, let's try and do mass timber lateral system in a high seismic region with these dampers and these additional funds help cover off our fees for performance-based design for the dampers themselves, that kind of thing. So I think it's really a testament to the government of Canada being forward-thinking and to the ownership group being forward thinking and aligning all that and saying, yeah, let's go for it and try and do something unique at the Hive. So I'm really excited for it to be built for going vertical right now with the CLT Shear walls and stuff. Yeah,

Adam Jones (27:17):
Yeah. And tell us about the supply chain. Do you have the local supply chain in US and Canada supporting the market, or do you import a lot from European supplier? So Spruce, and then are there design nuances if you do import with Spruce and actually working with different codes that are from Europe, or do you have to actually suit the local codes in the us?

Robert Jackson (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, that's a loaded question, but basically 6, 7, 8 years ago, there was a lot more European supply in the market. There was less players involved locally, but lately most of our supply for North American produce has been coming from North American suppliers. So we are working with Mercer and Smart Lamb south of the border, doing lots of stuff with them. We're working with Lesnik off a ton up here in the Pacific Northwest and down the coast. And we do a lot of work with Nordic and a bit with Element five. Those are the main players around, but there's many other smaller operations that do amazing work and we've done projects with them, but they didn't all exist 5, 6, 7, 8 years ago, and that's when European supply was really quite competitive when we're still finding it to be really competitive is on East coast projects, particularly East coast us, there's still lots of European suppliers shipping over competitively, and that's great Eastern coast of Canada.
(28:52):
There's a couple of jobs here and there that have used European timber, and there's no doubt that they can do it very, very economically and provide very sharp prices and they can do it very, very well. No question there. I'm just saying our experience has generally been that North American Supply has taken a larger grip of the North American market opportunities, but where we're still finding Europeans being in the mix, it's certainly on the east coast, particularly the east coast of the us. Yeah. And then in terms of using that fiber, when we do have European supply, typically what we do is we look to work with European suppliers that are PRG three 20 certified. That just makes everything so much simpler. And I think KLH store, Enzo bender holes, they've all gotten that certification I believe has locker as well. And there's a few others that don't have it. And when that happens also with Glulam, we port their characteristic values over adjust them through a fairly agreed upon method in the engineering community in terms of how to adjust their characteristic values to reference values in the NDS or specified values in the Canadian code, and then we just run it through the Canadian code. So that's how we've been doing it for years. But yeah,

Adam Jones (30:18):
It's been amazing to get to speak to you today. Roy, can you maybe do what landed on, what do you see as the future of construction? Where is it all going and where are you going to put your energy?

Robert Jackson (30:26):
Yeah, I'm excited to see massive and move forward in a couple different arenas. I think the first, which we did touch on earlier in our conversation is just the points support at CLT thing. We're big, big believers in that, and that really being the ticket for multi-unit residential lean and mean developer driven housing, we think that works well in that mid-rise gap that everybody talks about eight to 18 stories, 10 to 20 stories, that kind of gap or concrete isn't always singing the best. We've really found it to work very nicely there. And there's lots of future evolutions that can happen to that with moment connecting these CLT panels together. There's lots of technologies out there that are being explored and getting larger grids on point supported CLT. We're playing a small part in that and are just really keen to see that whole concept move forward to take grip of the market in the same way that flat plate concrete has across the world.
(31:24):
Every condo tower out there is flat plate concrete and it's for a reason. It's because it's really, really, really efficient and it works really well for flexible unit layouts and mechanical and everything. So you've got to do the same thing in wood. And that's a really cool next chapter I think for that system. So excited about that. I'm excited about timber lateral systems in high seismic regions. I think there's a point where I think you push it too far, and we're probably coming right up on that line at the Hive 10 stories high seismic that's really pushing it. There's been studies up to 30 stories and everything and some potential projects up in that region, but I think where it really starts to make sense is 10 stories and down six to eight, 10 stories. That's a good opportunity to run CLT Shear walls and Timber Braces.
(32:12):
And we've got a lot of lovely 3, 4, 5 story office buildings with CLT shear walls and timber braces. And I think that's just a wonderful use case of the material, and it just allows simpler procurement and there's a lot more research and stuff that has to be done on that system, and I think it'll just become more and more prevalent. So many projects right now are just like concrete core boom done than a mass timber, bird gravity frame, but I see that porting more and more to a timber brace bay around the perimeter or steel diagonal with timber beams and columns, that kind of thing. It's just a more natural fit for a prefabricated structure to get rid of that concrete core, if you can. So excited about that. And then, yeah, the longan stuff, just I think there's a real arena there that's exciting and there's a lot of lightweight structures out there.
(33:07):
You look at our website, the Grandview Heights Aquatic Center is at the time the longest timber cattery in the world, which cat container meaning wooden pure tension or a member in pure tension, no bending. And so that was like 10 and a half inch deep blue lamb spanning 180 feet in pure tension. And since then, sch Bergman is completed a pool in Paris for the Olympics. It's an amazing and amazing design. Very similar concept with wood intention wood, and I think there's just a lot of stuff you can do with wood outside of just straight up bending, use it intention in container forms or in compression and arch forms and do some longer span stuff. So we want to really build on the success of the Oval, the Richmond Oval and Grandview Heights Aquatic Center, which I mentioned is RY and p and e amphitheater.
(34:00):
That'll be the longest timber arch in the world, and really start to see if timber can start to fit its way into more rec centers, more regional airports, more training facilities for sports and rec. We see that as a big opportunity that we want to play a big part in and with the right architect and the right designer and the right owners reps, there's a lot of opportunity I think, in nesting in timber into these big grand roof structures where you can really get some expression going, some structural expression going. So those are three little avenues, which we've touched on in the podcast here that I'm excited about. Yeah,

Adam Jones (34:40):
Amazing. It's such an exciting future. If people want to find out more about yourself and Fast and Epp where should they go?

Robert Jackson (34:47):
Yeah, our website is fastepp.com, and we're on Instagram @Fastepp if you want to have a good follow there. And we do work all over North America, so full service, structural engineering, EOR services. We're licensed in over 30 states and all of the provinces in Canada, so we do full service there, as well as full service in Germany and outside of those countries. We do concept design services, so SD and dd, and we have many strategic alliances with other structural engineering companies around there. So around the world really. So we're looking at some products in Brazil. We just finished a big canopy in Tel Aviv. We're looking at some stuff in Australia and your neck of the woods. So certainly always willing to engage with other talented designers and other talented engineers where we come in and do some concept design work alongside your teams, and then pass it off for the ING and all the details. So yeah, we're really passionate about this stuff and still got lots of gas in the tank, as you said.

Adam Jones (36:03):
Hope you enjoyed that episode. If you've got any questions about timber, I reckon you're going to find the answers in one of WoodSolutions technical design guides. Right now, there's over 50 of them, which covers a wide range of topics, so I highly recommend it and go and check it out.