Ep 133 - Accelerating the market of mass timber with Andrew Waugh

Adam Jones (00:01):

We'll post edit the podcast, send it to you before it goes up, all that sort of stuff. And I'll do it chop snick in at the very start after this. 

Andrew Waugh (00:13):

Awesome.

Adam Jones (00:14):

But yeah, sounds good.

Andrew Waugh (00:15):

Alright, Adam.

Adam Jones (00:16):

Unreal mate, let's get into it. So thanks so much for coming on the podcast, Andrew. I think you're the most common guest I've ever had. I actually think we've maybe two or three, at least two anyway, but welcome back to the podcast. But for those who are new to you, can you start with an introduction about yourself and also your practice?

Andrew Waugh (00:35):

Yeah, sure. Thanks Adam. So I'm Andrew War from Wal Thistleton Architects. We're a London based practice and we've been working in mass timber for 20 years. We work now pretty much all over the world, which is really exciting. We do a lot of research, so I guess about a quarter of the office is pure research. So we have research projects for the US government, for the European government, for UK education and railways, and lots of different stuff around design technology, fire detailing, insurance, lots of different kind of research projects that really enable us to carry out the work that we're excited about in mass timber.

Adam Jones (01:22):

Yeah, awesome. Well, I might just pull on that thread a little bit. So you named a lot of those things there. What ones do you think is the most bleeding edge, which is actually going to move the needle the most from a global point of view?

Andrew Waugh (01:37):

So in the UK we had this awful event at Grandville Tower, and I know that you've had dissimilar events sadly in Australia prior to that and also more recently in Spain. And what we need to be very conscious about with timber is that it is a combustible material and that a burning timber building, the timber in that building can add to the fuel load of any fire. So we need to be really sure that as a design community, as a construction industry, we really understand how timber, how mass timber performs in fire, how we can build safely and yet still kind of celebrate and enjoy the material. I think the idea that we had really for many years, I think at the beginning was this kind of simple replacement from concrete and steel to timber. And it definitely is, it is still the only viable alternative at scale to concrete and timber to concrete and steel.

(02:37):

But I think we need to also acknowledge that this is a material that you need to keep dry over time. This is a material that you need to protect against fire. So there are complications or there are challenges in using the material as well, thinking about a whole scale change of the industry from a concrete pace industry to a bio-based industry, then we need to accept that there are challenges within that. The successes are massive and obvious, beautiful buildings, lovely places to be in replenishable material, carbon store, low carbon ducts, low carbon emissions, et cetera. But there are also challenges. And so we've done this project, which you can see on our website, on our Instagram and stuff called the New Model Building. And what the new model building does is to look at systems for design and detailing, which keep the building safe, which keep the building safe over time.

(03:36):

Are they come from 20 years of learning about how to work with this material, the successes and the challenges we've had on previous projects and that colleagues and collaborators have had as well. So the idea is that it really is, it's not about the look of a building or even the plan of that building or the facade material. It really is about those junction details, those intersection details. It's ensuring, I guess an opportunity or the ability for our industry to be able to promote and progress this architecture, but with an understanding of what safety, detailing and safe design means. And it means that we can bring the insurance industry on board. We've worked really closely with them on this project. We've worked closely with a number of different fire engineers, with structural engineers. We done lots of carbon accounting on this system. So yeah, that's what I'm really excited about because I think it can really make a difference. And we're beginning to look at new model buildings in Spain and in Italy helping out with one in the Netherlands. So I can see that this really kind of progressing across different contexts.

Adam Jones (04:45):

Yeah, a hundred percent. I clearly remember last time we spoke, I think it was a bit closer to the fall and everyone, I believe the UK market might've been a little bit spooked. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. But since then, how have things have been going and what have been the catalyst for change? And maybe it's related to everything you were saying then and some of that research, the work you have been doing

Andrew Waugh (05:08):

That's unusually understated for you. Adam. I'd say we fell off a cliff. I don't know that there's been a single multifamily apartment building, residential building built in the UK since then out of mass timber, not a single one. So that's actually where we are. And our industry has gone down from representing about 2017. We're about 15% of global CLT use and now we're probably around 1%.

Adam Jones (05:44):

Wow.

Andrew Waugh (05:46):

So it's been a massive shock to the market. Obviously there are other issues. We've had covid and the downturn in the economy and the self-inflicted ridiculous injury that is Brexit that has completely crippled us in culturally and economically. But yeah, it's been a massive change

Adam Jones (06:08):

And especially because as a practice, I remember you made the call and the leap to say, Hey, we're going a hundred percent mass timber, and that was before that happened and you're still thriving or I believe you're thriving more than ever as a practice. How was that making that call? And you're seeing that in the market, you're based in all that unfold and how did you pull through there? And you obviously diversified geographically as well, it seems.

Andrew Waugh (06:32):

Yeah, we went off island,

(06:36):

Isn't that what you say? In Australia? Anyway, we began to do more and more overseas. And also I think the research has become a really, I mean there's obviously whenever you do anything innovative, whenever you do anything new, there's a constant element of research about what you're doing because it's not just a functional process. You are looking to see what the implications are. You're looking to understand what the issues might be and challenges, et cetera, opportunities. But I think that because there was this massive breaks on issue that happened to us, we've really realized that what we needed to do was to provide the evidence of, to give confidence to the market. And that pause, although incredibly frustrating has also been, I think any of these things. It's like we've also put it to real use and we've come out of this better, stronger, better informed, producing, designing, constructing better buildings.

(07:54):

So this hiatus really has been a process of reflection. It's given us the opportunity for a process of reflection and forum. And also we've diversified a bit because prior to 2017 with most of the stuff that we did was residential. Now most of the stuff that we do is commercial. And it's really exciting to get that kind of cross-pollination of design, philosophy, design technologies. The communities that exist within our industry, within residential and within commercial are often quite distinct. So actually we've learned a lot from the office market about biophilia, about wellness, about the kind of influence that certification systems like neighbors give, which is really interesting. And I think that that is only, that will only result in better residential buildings.

Adam Jones (08:47):

Yeah, that's amazing. And so you might've already touched on it again, but what are the cutting edge challenges right now that are holding things back and that you're working on right now? And it seems like it might be whack-a-mole where you whack one problem and then it's like something

Andrew Waugh (09:05):

Whack-a-mole is, yeah, it can feel like we try and liken it to a hurdle race rather whacka, but the hurdles definitely aren't in a straight line, Adam. That has to be true. But I think that in terms of what we've learned the opportunities is for this is we need, this needs to be a complete transformation. It needs to be a paradigm shift in architecture. And that can be as prosaic as understanding about moisture during construction or insurance issues around fire, or thinking about how we count sequestered carbon within our overall understanding of our buildings so that we don't actually just have a solid lump of timber if we're trying to reduce the carbon because hey, look at all that stored carbon, so let's just use as much timber as possible. It's also about understanding about resource responsibility. And I think overall, when you stand back and you look at all these different issues, all these different moles or hurdles that we're talking about, actually what you realize is that within a paradigm shift, within that kind of onic, no, not onic, tectonic.

Adam Jones (10:27):

I know what that word Tectonic. Yeah,

Andrew Waugh (10:30):

Tectonic. No, CHES Knight in armor feels a bit like that jousting. Anyway, tectonic shift are also is about reframing how we see success in architecture. And I think for me that's, that's been a really interesting learning process is that the way that our society talks about success in architecture, the way we talk about our buildings in our cities has been about these for many years now, for decades, has been about these individual idea explosions, these individual, individual statements from fated individuals in our society. And I think that, which means that we have these super tall, shiny glass objects glittering in the sun. Whereas actually what we, I believe need to think about is buildings that celebrate their success in terms of their relationship with our planet in terms of how people feel when they live and work in these buildings, how healthy they are, how harming and secure and happy and content they make us feel.

(11:51):

And I think that that's really, we need to be measuring success, not thinking, oh, I wonder if this year's color will be yellow or last year's is orange or do you know what I mean? And I think that the Instagram clickbait nature of architecture at the moment needs to be reconsidered. And I think that timber is very much part of that story. And I guess that for many years I thought that timber was the headline, but actually I'm not so sure it is. I think timber is the enabler for a better future for architecture.

Adam Jones (12:29):

So I mean when it comes to timber architecture, is it like you got that paradigm of function? Maybe it's a totally wrong paradigm, but function follows form, form follows function. I mean, is sort of what you're saying that the architecture follows the rather than the other way around sort of thing? Is that Yeah, maybe double down.

Andrew Waugh (12:49):

I think it has to. Yeah, I think it has to. And I think that touching the ground, lightly notions of sufficiency and necessity and not using more than we need, not being ostentatious in our actions because we realize that actually that ostentatiousness hurts our planet. It's not good for our futures, it's not good for the futures of our children. And actually how we can do that succinctly and sufficiently and beautifully and kind of calmly I think is really exciting, really cool actually. So I see a much better future for architecture, but definitely it's not enough to be an optimist. You have to be an activist and you have to be loud about these things. Yeah,

Adam Jones (13:39):

That's awesome. And you did touch on, there's a lot of new things, what we need to be considering. I mean the traditional model, it's very, a lot of the time it can be quite siloed and you're structural engineer does structural and you're acoustic and so forth. How do you pull a team together at the start and how do you manage that process? It seems like everyone wants to be in that first meeting as well. It's like

Andrew Waugh (14:04):

They really do. No, Adam, that's a brilliant point. I'm well made. It's like it has to be collaborative, right? Because as you say, so I'm kind of mansplaining you now, but to make change, you can only do that through collaboration. That mean, obviously there needs to be leadership within that. There needs to be excitement and passion and energy toward that, but you have to take the whole team with you. And I think that there's a number of different ways of doing that. It's about asking questions, making demands of your team. So never letting engineers go away and beaver and go away and sit in a corner and do that stuff and come back to you making sure that engineers understand that their role is design, not problem solving. They're not there to go and satisfy the whim of the architect and make it real. They're actually there as part of the team, an understanding of how to use new materials in different ways.

(15:00):

And that needs to be a collaborative process. So we work very closely with engineers. We get them in the office for long periods of time, we take them for coffee and beer and we enjoy their company and try and learn from it. And it's the same with mechanical engineers as well, services consultants. I mean, one of our biggest problems at the moment is understanding exactly what the implications of having a low thermal mass material is. If you've got a material that's not radiating heat, do you need the same sorts of systems to kind of cool that structure down? Sure, you can take advantage of nighttime purging and thermal mass, but if you don't have it, then it's a whole different approach to how are you ventilate and heat and cool a building. So there's those sorts of things. The structural engineering part of it, the efficiency, the sufficiency of the material has to be done with the understanding of the engineering capacity of that material, what the different materials might be, different types of engineered timber in the problem.

(16:01):

And then it's the same for contractors. One of the things that we've learned to do with contractors is not to hide our aims and ambitions from them, not to be embarrassed of the fact that we're trying to do something that's good for the planet as well as good for our client and to bring them on that journey with us. So many years ago, for the first time, we actually put up laminated pictures around the site, heart of the carbon story of what we were doing and why we were doing it. And then you just get massive buy it from the people that you are working with because they realize that you are not, this isn't just a kind of functional process. There's actual ambition to do something different. There's ambition, a holistic ambition about the project beyond just surviving and making money. And I think that when you do that, when you bring everybody with you, you just get a completely different culture. And it's a problem solving culture, a positive culture.

Adam Jones (17:08):

Yeah. That's amazing. Well, I've spoken a couple about, or asked about some of the hurdles, but one of the biggest obvious tailwind is sustainability. And on one hand I'm keen to hear from you what are the global policy shifts, but at the same time, from a contrarian point of view, it seems like three years ago, if you'd say all these announcements are happening and what practical materials are out there to actually solve for its only mass timber, but it doesn't seem like, I don't know, is the mass, is it as much of a tailwind in the short term as we would've thought? And when is that going to kick in then it just makes it so undeniable that you have to go in this direction? Or are we there already right now?

Andrew Waugh (17:54):

I mean, just gauge. No, no, I know what the question is and I'm trying to gauge my response and thinking about how I can phrase it without swearing. So do you know what I mean? So I dunno, if you told me a year ago we wouldn't have moved any further in terms of sustainability legislation, in terms of cultural demand for sustainability, social demand for sustainability, I would've been amazed. But here we are and it's still really slow in the uptake. It's kind of incredible, especially as all the stuff that we were warned about 10 years ago, 20 years ago. We're now in the midst of floods and we keep on calling them kind of break storms and hang on a sec. If you've got a freak storm every couple of weeks, then it's not actually freak anymore. It's just a storm and heat waves still calling them heat waves that actually need to change the language and just realize that the climate change that we were talking about 20 years ago has arrived and the weather events, the mass migration, the right wing governments, the Trump, et cetera, all of that stuff is actually happening.

(19:13):

We're in it now. And the coral bleaching, all those sorts of things, you would have imagined that this would've created a massive reaction from society. And yet we're still kind of docile, generally docile about it, which is amazing. What is it going to take for society to just kind of go what the actual Fred is going on? So I dunno. Okay, so that's like amazement. But then on the other side and also legislation, I mean your government as bad as our government, we're both Australia and the uk depressingly lagging behind the rest of the western world in terms of sustainability legislation, the us Interesting, right? So ESG, although they're having to change the name now because it's become political, but the ESG requirements of investment companies is becoming a really interesting thing. So every time that you fill in that little kind of pension form in the box at the end saying, would you like it to go to a green fund?

(20:24):

And you go ticket, everybody does that. Every teacher and postman, trucker, whoever, these people are all over Canada for instance, it's got this amazing kind of Canadian pension plan investment board, and they're doing incredible low carbon construction all over the world, really ambitious stuff. They're really making a demonstrable difference. There are many others like that, big green funds who come from teachers and from postman and from all these kind of people who are actually voting with their pension. They're voting with their future to make a change. And these investment companies are having to invest in low carbon construction, in low carbon developments. And that is making a bigger change and a bigger influence than any other single thing that I'm seeing at the moment. So it's ESG funds, the result, the fact that these ESG funds are now being audited in Europe, audited in the UK, they will be audited in the US very shortly. And as I understand it in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and I would hope in Australia as well. So these things that that's beginning to make a difference.

Adam Jones (21:38):

Yeah, totally. Yeah. The money talks more than anything, right? The money talks.

Andrew Waugh (21:42):

The money talks, but it's not the big money, it's the individuals who are actually finding more power through their pension than they're getting through their ballot box.

Adam Jones (21:54):

Yeah, it's amazing. If you look at an individual's impact they can have barring careers, maybe number one, what you do with your time and energy, you've got what you can choose that on. But the other one, like you said, it's where are you actually putting your money? And then in your pension, we have our superannuation pension, whatever it's called, basically. But if that's sitting there, someone's using that money to invest in things. And if you tick that box like you said, then it is going in that direction, 

Andrew Waugh (22:22):

Hey, It makes a massive difference. So tick that box folks,

Adam Jones (22:27):

That'll be the name. I mean, I think

Andrew Waugh (22:28):

The other thing as well is that Adam, we need to be climate change, just like whether it's women's suffrage or feminism or diversity or any of these sorts of challenges that society have come across to be more open, more generous, more inclusive. Climate change needs to be part of that kind of conversation. Needs to be something that you're not embarrassed about talking about that you don't think you're going to be a buzzkill or a fun sponge or any of those things I've been called over the years. But actually you can go into a social,

Adam Jones (23:10):

Imagine you called a Andrew,

Andrew Waugh (23:15):

I dunno, get me down the petrochemical arms mate, and I'm there.

Adam Jones (23:20):

That's it.

Andrew Waugh (23:20):

But I think it's just so important that we are having these conversations as a society, as humanity, that we are talking about this kind of thing all the time. Putting those conversations out there, thinking about activism, thinking about how we can make a better society from the crippling problems that do face us. Yeah,

Adam Jones (23:46):

That's incredible. Looking forward, I guess looking back, you were the first pioneer really with Stud House and a lot of the industry's got a lot of thank to those big leaps and those risks taken by you and the project team at the very start. Where is it heading into the future? Where do you see things? Are there big leaps on projects and things like that? Or are we sort of in that maturing phase where the innovations are sort of being picked away? So where are we heading where,

Andrew Waugh (24:21):

I don't know. I don't know if I knew I'd be doing it. I dunno. One thing I'm pretty sure about, it's not about how tall you can go. That's not a question, that's not an interesting question. I think that that's a sort of, how fast can you go question it's we need to be more sophisticated than that. I think it is about a replacing of values and maybe those changes aren't glamorous or phenomenal in the same way that we might look back on previous advances in society. Maybe they're a little bit more humdrum, maybe they're a little bit more mundane, but maybe they put better smiles on our faces and give us a happier lives and better cities to live in. So I don't know. I think that what we haven't done yet is really understand what the true nature of a timber architecture is. I think that, myself included, we're still building concrete buildings out of timber and we need to understand what that paradigm shift will really begin to look like and feel like. So that's what I'm constantly searching for.

Adam Jones (25:45):

Yeah, that's an incredibly modest, modest answer if anyone can sort of pick something in a view. But that's probably, that's excellent. If people want to find out more about yourself, Andrew got interested questions, want to figure out your research, anything like that, where should they go?

Andrew Waugh (26:02):

Website, Instagram. Get me on LinkedIn. We're really open for conversation and to meet people. So yeah, bring it on.

Adam Jones (26:12):

Unreal. Thank you so much, Andrew. That was amazing.