In this podcast episode, Franco Piva discusses the evolution of mass timber engineering since he started his company in 2007. He highlights how mass timber use has expanded from small buildings in Italy to larger projects globally. Franco emphasizes the importance of advanced BIM (Building Information Modeling) management, noting its role in coordinating designs, avoiding clashes, and streamlining construction. He also points out the gap between current BIM software capabilities and market needs. Franco suggests that early involvement of timber engineers and collaboration from the project's inception are crucial for successful mass timber projects.
Timber Talks Series 7
WoodSolutions Timber Talks podcast is back for series seven with our host Adam Jones, Australian engineer and founder of CLT Toolbox. This series offers a blend of informative and entertaining content focused on timber design, specification, and construction. The podcast features discussions with leading experts in the field, presenting the latest design practices, innovations, and intriguing case studies.
Adam Jones (00:01):
Great. And I'll post edits and introduction at the end. Well, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Franco, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, your company, and what you do?
Franco Piva (00:13):
Yeah. Okay. Well thank you very much Adam for the invitation. Very happy to be here and good morning, afternoon, or good evening to all people attending this meeting, this podcast, listening to this podcast. I'm Franco and I created a company, engineering company. Oh wow. In 2007, so it was 17 years ago, to be more precise, it was July 2007, so it is almost 17 years almost as an engineering company. We are based in Italy, and we've been engineering timber structures for 17 years. We started working only in Italy and still Italy is one of the main market for us considering a single country. But we started a few years ago, eight years ago we started working outside Italy. We wanted to explore how the world is, basically how they are using mass timber in other countries, in other areas. And I must say something like a fun factor, it took me a while to understand what they mean for mass timber because there is no specific translation of mass timber from English to Italian. So I tried for months to understand what do they exactly mean for mass timber? Is it CLT, just GLT or something else? And nowadays, for me, I'm very familiar with that and I used that world very often, but trust me, it was not easy at the very beginning to understand they were talking about mass timber and there was like, okay, could be, lemme better understand what you mean.
Adam Jones (02:25):
Yeah, that's amazing. Well, so between 2007, 17 years ago to now, what are the biggest changes and developments you've seen since then? Thinking about your first projects to where we are now, because I guess Italy was one of the birthplaces of, correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of mass timber very mature and it's been in Italy for a very long time, I believe.
Franco Piva (02:51):
Oh yeah. I think that the very first CLT building in Italy was built around beginning of year 2000, maybe 99, 2000, 2001. That was the period, and it was a lot of time ago, basically let's say 24, 25 years ago and for many years almost nobody was talking about mass timber, about CLT. But then things of course changed and in the past six, seven years, I think the biggest change, maybe it is not really change, but the market for sure, something happened on the market and if you look at the map now, one of the main markets or one of the areas where they speak or they promote more mass timber buildings in North America, here in Italy, the biggest difference I think is that here in Europe and in Italy we are still thinking about using mass timber for small buildings, small, medium sized buildings. While in other areas they are pushing the boundaries and they are exploring how to use more and more CLT for big buildings, for tall buildings, for what we could call skyscrapers made of mass timber. So, there is an evolution for sure. The market is quite slow. This is like a con of this development. The market is quite slow in accepting this revolution, which implies the use of digital tools, which implies the use of new software. There is still quite a lack, a bridge, quite a gap between what the market needs and what the software industry offers. There is still a quite big gap.
Adam Jones (05:14):
Yeah. Well, it's a bit of a good segue because one of the topics we're talking about today is advanced BIM management. So can you start by introducing what this is and even, I mean BIM, it's a term that might mean different things to different people around the world. So, we could maybe start with what that means to you as well.
Franco Piva (05:36):
Yeah, well BIM, we started exploring how we can implement BIM in our workflow. About 10 years ago, at that time almost nobody was talking about this IFC format was something really new. The software we've been using, we were using at that time and still using now. It was like in the better version you can export in IFC. So, I remember we had to contact the software house and ask them to allow us to do that and make the first tests. Now if I look back, if look back in time, I think that was a good decision for us to start immediately exploring what IFC can make. And in the past four or five years we improved a lot. How the way we manage IFC files when it comes to mass timber, BIM is very important because it helps you to work together with the other designers.
(06:57):
It helps you to foresee the problems you could have in avoiding penetrations, avoiding clashes with other materials, I mean with the mechanicals, with concrete structure could be with steel, with other part of the structure of the building. So, I think that I like the word advanced BIM management because it is not simply BIM management stop. What does it mean? It is so wide concept. I think at the moment we have all the tools to make an advance at very advanced BIM management because we can very easily merge together different from different sources. So, what we try to do, and it is not always possible, but what we try to do is to get the files from the other designers, steel engineers, concrete engineers, mechanical engineers, et cetera, merge them together and find the clashes, find the problems we could have onsite. This helps us to make a very good project. This helps us to avoid problems in the future onsite, but especially helps us to have a global view of the whole project.
(08:33):
BIM is not just 3D, it's not just using ArchiCAD, Revit or plan, et cetera. We need to raise the level, we need to use IFC file in a very wise way because this can really help us to avoid problems on site, to speed up the assembly, to speed up the construction of the building. So, the BIM manager has kind of a key role in the whole process and the BIM manager in my opinion, cannot be just the one merging together the files. It has to be the one finding the problems and telling all the different players what they have to do, what is wrong, what is not perfect, what they have to work on. It has a very, very, very, very important role in the whole process.
Adam Jones (09:43):
Gotcha. Is that a totally brand-new role or is the BIM manager, it sits with the engineer, the supplier who manages this and who's the best to lead it do you think?
Franco Piva (10:00):
Well, good question. In a perfect world, there should be someone subcontracted by, in my opinion, by the general contractor and this guy, this company, this team should manage all the different files. This is in a perfect world, but we are not there yet. So, I can share my experience with you with some large-scale projects. BIM management is in a gray area, nobody knows who does what, who is the BIM manager, who is the one in charge of merging the files of finding the clashes. So, my experience is that in many cases we know as a company we know how to manage IFC files, how to merge them, but we have not been managers. This is not our role generally in the project. But at the very end, at the end of the day, we were forced to be also the manager. In addition to being timber engineers.
(11:28):
They wanted us to check all the problems on the timber side. And it was quite strange because our role, we were hired for those projects. We were hired for structural analysis, 3D drawings. But after a while they said, oh no, you have to manage the BIM files, why it's not our role. But they say yeah, because you have to be sure that there are no clashes. It's not my role. So now we after some good bad experiences, we clarified these in the contract. What we do do not do because being structural engineers, being the ones making the 3D drawings is one thing. Be management is something different.
(12:30):
This role needs some specific skills. We have some of them, but we have not the managers. So, it is a very specific area, very specific role. And also, the building codes are not so helpful. At least this is based on my experience. Maybe someone could say, no, there is this ISO, this building code or something like that. That clarifies everything. I'm not aware of that simply because I'm not a BIM manager. But yeah, it is a very, very important role, Adam and this role, this team can really change the way you manage the project, can really improve it and avoid problems among the different members of the teams.
Adam Jones (13:41):
Yeah, I mean what are some of the problems that have popped up when it's like you mentioned it wasn't picked up early in some scopes and then later it's an afterthought. I mean your experience, I'm sure it ended up being a success story, but if it's not handled correctly, what are some of the problems that can pop up on projects that are less desirable?
Franco Piva (14:05):
Well, the biggest problem is that there is no coordination between the different teams. So, what can happen is that we draw something as timber engineers, steel engineers, they make something else. Concrete engineers, they make something else. And that could be small clashes or that could be misunderstandings. It can be very, it can happen because if you look at the drawings only in 2D, you miss for sure something you need to work in 3D, you need to combine the different files and then look for the problems and to go through all the projects, to go through all the details is not something you do in a few minutes while for the contractors or for the builders, they think sometimes they watch the short movies on YouTube, LinkedIn, et cetera. They see one click, you open the files, second click, you master the files, third click class detection, boom. And so, they imagine
Adam Jones (15:22):
LinkedIn demos, they seem to do that.
Franco Piva (15:24):
Yeah. When we say you need to pay more for the BIM management, we can make partially, but we need more time, we need more money, et cetera. Oh no, it is just a few minutes. Well, not really. So, the problem is that they save, apparently they think they save money now, but then onsite you will have to solve the problems because at the very end, all the clashes, all the penetrations, all the problems will need to be faced onsite once you have the material and it is not easy. It could be not easy and not cheap to solve all those things.
Adam Jones (16:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's excellent. And you mentioned sometimes you got steel, sometimes you got precast concrete, sometimes got you got timber. Sometimes it's 10 storeys and we somehow got to fit it all together as well. So coordination is one thing. Can you tell us about tolerances and some of these challenges that come up and how they should be looked at as well?
Franco Piva (16:41):
Yeah, definitely. And I add something more. In many cases we have to deal with different teams in different parts of the world with different software. So, it is super important to be sure that everyone is let's say, aligned to use the same IFC format, two times three or four or something even older. We have to be on the same page, the same units, the same location of the building. One thing, now we agree since day one on the project, where is the origin, where is the triple zero point in this project? So, we have the same reference point, and we can merge the files without moving, without rotating, et cetera. It is something we make on day one. We make some tests to be sure that it works and then we can very quickly merge the files. So, it is really important to have different teams working together because there are so many different sources, so many different workflows. Everyone has his own workflow in-house in the company, but once you combine the files, once you have to manage them in a BIM workflow, all the companies have to create an output file that can be part of the new workflow. It can be managed by the BIM managers.
Adam Jones (18:43):
Yeah. What are your thoughts on the overall wastage? I feel like there's this thought that maybe it's kid or parts where you can copy and paste the design work in a building and start again or moving in that direction in general, I guess there's a lot of people building the same models it seems and there's a lot of wastage in the process. I mean, do you agree that there is wastage and what do you see as a big step forward in innovation of removing this building things, redundant things, throwing it in the bin and starting again sort of thing.
Franco Piva (19:22):
What you are describing would be the dream of the economists.
Adam Jones (19:27):
Yes. That is
Franco Piva (19:30):
To create some, a library kit of parts and then you combine them to create something different. I'm a big fan of Lego, so I would like for some aspects that building could be something similar. You have 2000 elements and then you combine together having a standard way to connect them. But in reality, if I look back in the past 20 years, of course for some details we can make copy and paste from one project to another one, but they are so different. Sometimes you have to change the connections. Sometimes the thickness of the CLT ULA details, every building is different. If I had to say a number, I think that we cannot reuse more than 10% from one building to another one, maybe 20 in some special cases. But otherwise, everything is customized, is tailored, made, is customized on the needs of the client of the structural system they decided to go for. There are so many variables that we always need to recalculate, rethink, solve new problems, new challenges. Don't get me wrong, it's not that 100% is new, but 80 90% is partially new or is an adaptation of something we already had in our library.
Adam Jones (21:35):
Gotcha.
Franco Piva (21:40):
Copy and paste style at the moment is not something working. My opinion.
Adam Jones (21:49):
I'm always interested to hear from, I mean you got not many people in the world who got 17 years experience in the pragmatic, what are the real practicalities of projects? So, there's been a lot of promise of different innovations in different categories for a long time now, and some things may have gone forward, something's not. What do you think has the biggest promise in terms of innovation in moving projects ahead in the coming years?
Franco Piva (22:21):
I think we have two. Basically, when I look at the mass timber world, I see on one side there is production. On the other side, there is engineering or design in general. So, for the production, I think we have already, the industry had already developed a very efficient way to produce CLT. And I don't think they can make a revolution or they can change so many things to lower the price, to speed up the production. I think they can work on the marginal gains, but there will be not so much to do. I think, while on the other side, on the engineering side, on the design side, I think there is a lot of work to do. I see. And we are testing, we've been testing for a while, new technologies, new digital tools that that allow us to reduce the time to allow us to better manage the whole workflow. And one very, very big challenge we are facing is that the client architects, builders our clients, they don't like to freeze the design.
(23:51):
So, they say, yes, we freeze the design now day one is June 17th, but you already know that in three weeks, in four, six weeks, there could be something different. Even if they add a single hole or if they change a few things, a few small things for them, small things for them could mean hundreds of hours for us to redraw some element to rethink the detail. So, we are trying to see how we can automatize some semi repetitive tasks and new tools are arriving on the market. I think we are still on the, I would like to say I say something, which is not completely true, but we are a medieval age at the moment for these tools. Maybe AI could help us in the next two, three years. It'll be, I think a very quick process. If we look at the time, it will take maybe maximum five years. But for sure, I think there will be new tools and very innovative tools on the market to help us to manage mass timber bear structures.
Adam Jones (25:31):
Yeah, excellent.
Franco Piva (25:32):
At the moment, the software industry is far behind the needs of the market.
Adam Jones (25:44):
Yep. I'm sure they're getting there working hard to get there one day. And
Franco Piva (25:51):
Adam, you are doing something like that because the tool you've been developing is something really new. I'm not here to flatter you to say that, but it is a good product because there was a gap in the market. How can we design CLT? How can we properly design CLT in different areas of the world? Connections. It's not just design simply supported the slab. This is super easy. But when it comes to connect different elements, having holes in the CLT in the BIMs, how to reinforcement them, hundreds of details to manage. So new tools will arrive on the market to improve the life of the designers.
Adam Jones (26:51):
Yeah, totally. There's an exciting opportunity with a lot of tools coming out, but I appreciate the shout out. Yeah. So, from your experience, Franco, looking broadly at projects, what are the keys to a successful mass timber project in the most broad sense? We've covered BIM being one. What are the other things?
Franco Piva (27:14):
Not sure I understood their question. Sorry, Adam. Yeah,
Adam Jones (27:16):
Yeah, no problem. I think I said I don't think I even asked the question properly, but yeah. From your experience, Franco, what are the most important things for a project team to get right for a successful mass timber project?
Franco Piva (27:30):
Oh, okay. You mean the team of people? Yeah,
Adam Jones (27:35):
Everything could be anything. What are the things, if someone's just starting their first project now, what are the things they should be thinking about in that first meeting on the agenda?
Franco Piva (27:51):
I think that, and we have a very good example for that to prove it. On day one, they have, if they want to go for mass timber, they have to hire a timber engineer day one mass timber expert. This helps them to avoid a lot of problems to redesign redraw. The elements go back, oh, it is too expensive. What happens is that in many cases, they draw their dream, they create this innovative design, very good design. Then this drawing arrives on the desk of the timber engineers and they say, oh wow, we need steel. We need columns we need new columns. We need to change a lot of things. And the conclusion could be too expensive. Let's go for something different. Or on the other side, the conclusion could be we want to go for mass timber, but we need to rethink the building. We need to tell the client that his building will be a bit different. So, I really think that one must be they must create the team. And one of the members, if they want to go for mass timber, one of the members has to be a timber engineer.
Adam Jones (29:33):
Gotcha.
Franco Piva (29:35):
And when I said we have a very good example is, as I was telling you, we've been working for a while on a, I can call it skyscraper made of mass timber. It would be an 11 storey building without concrete shaft. So, all the lateral system is made with CLT and we started working together with the architects. It was not maybe day one, but day two. And we still working together, we worked together with them, aligning the world's columns, finding the best solution to value engineer the project at the very early stage, not where they complete 90% of the project. And we start value engineering process. We started day two. This helped a lot and this made possible to go for that. So big building otherwise with that traditional, let's say, workflow, which means we subcontract the timber engineers after one year and a half of design. In that case, it would not work. So, I'm very happy about this project because it really proved working together from day one is the solution to make the project happen.
Adam Jones (31:10):
Yep. Well, that's phenomenal advice to end on. I think that's a cool saying almost value engineering on day one as opposed to day 500. So yeah, it's been excellent to chat to you, Franco. If people want to find out more about yourself, ERUs, where should they go? And as I say that I'll mention you're really active on LinkedIn and you've added a lot of value to the community and you put energy into the content you put out as well. But yeah, where can people find you?
Franco Piva (31:44):
Well, they can find us on LinkedIn. God, almost Timber engineering is our open square where they can contact us and read our technical articles. And then of course, the website. I always thought that we need to share our knowledge. If designers don't know how to use a CLT, that we never go for that material. They don't like a black box, you will receive something onsite. No, they want to see how the process is. They want to see why we go for that solution and why we go for another solution. So, we keep sharing our knowledge on that. We hope there will be more and more timber engineers on the market. We need them. The market requires to have new skilled and good timber engineers so they can go on the website and on LinkedIn page and find us.
Adam Jones (32:47):
Fantastic. Well, it's been phenomenal to get to chat to you and thanks for coming on the podcast.
Franco Piva (32:52):
Well, thanks to you and thanks to everyone for listening us.