Ep 143 - Optimising and derisking for project success

Adam Jones (00:13):

Nick Hewson has been involved in the timber industry for over a decade now in mass timber projects. I actually had a podcast with him about eight years ago…one of my first ever podcasts. And since then, the challenges have really changed and evolved along the way so the focus now is towards moisture during construction as one of the priorities from Nick’s perspective. So, in this episode we have a wide-ranging conversation about what how we can make projects successful and maximise the up-side and limit the downside and overall risk and what we can do when it comes to moisture. So, Nick is an industry legend, and I really enjoyed the conversation. So without any further ado here’s my conversation with Nick Hewson.

Adam Jones (00:13):

Well thanks so much for coming on the podcast Nick. I think we've had two or three podcasts right, now? Or we actually had a false start last week where the internet just sort of went kaboom. For those who don't know you yet and you'd be a well-known name I think in the timber industry globally now, but for those who don't know you yet please have an introduction of yourself, what you do, and what role you're playing right now in the industry.

Nick Hewson (00:38):

Sure. Thanks Adam. Thanks for having me on again. I think it's been a number of years since we've been catching up and every time we catch up, both of us have got a different role so we're both evolving through the industry. But my name's Nick Hewson, I'm a structural engineer by background. I've worked in the UK and then moved to Australia in 2010. So, always had an interest in passion in timber and learned that in the UK and then moving to Australia when it was just sort of starting to pick up here, you know the idea of CLT and mass timber was still very, very new. We hadn't built anything really at scale at that point. So, I sort of worked through consultant engineering. I worked for XLam in timber manufacture for about five years and then I've worked for a prefab company doing timber prefab at Viridi group in Sydney for another two and a half years.

(01:31):

So, I kind of really had that design for manufacture and assembly experience through different businesses, and now for coming up to a year now, I started my own company called Arboralis. So, we are focused on all things timber to get mass timber buildings and at lightweight prefabricated buildings as well. So, really consulting across a real broad range of projects from everything from sort of backyard granny flats up to ya know multi-story office towers, so working either providing structural engineering services or advice around procurement, design, doing temporary works and also get involved a lot in industry conversations and research. So, I'm still heavily involved in a lot of discussions around new codes, research design standards, so yeah really very broad, which is exciting, keeps me entertained and there's a lot of really interesting work happening in the timber space at the moment and it's great to be part of that.

Adam Jones (02:40):

Yeah, and you were part of the Stadthaus, if I'm pronouncing correctly, Stadthaus project right in the UK…Were you part of that one 10 years ago?

Nick Hewson (02:49):

I had some involvement on that very early days at a limited capacity, but it was quite interesting coming out of university. So, I joined a small boutique company called Technica, so small boutique engineers in London. It just so happened at the same kind of time I was starting, we built up a relationship with KLH UK so they were looking to get into the market in Australia and we're looking for some office space. So, Karl-Heinz Weiss, who I know has been on your show as well before and would be well known to a lot of people in the timber industry in Australia, So, he described himself as my timber dad, so he taught me everything there is to know about CLT ya know…

 (04:50):

I think when I was just starting out, we really got a kind of front row seat to the take up of mass timber and CLT in particular in the UK. So, worked on a number of projects in those early days and the Stadthaus and Kingsdale School and a few other kind of domestic projects. So you know really kind of amazing way to learn the new material sort of direct. We were still having to have German codes translated and things because it was still so new to us. So, it was pretty fun time and really kickstarted my career in this timber space and it's timber space and it's been a wonderful part of the industry to be involved in.

Adam Jones (04:19):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And yeah, 10 years. It'd be really interesting to know how in your design meetings 10 years ago on a project like Stadthaus and today, are we dealing with quite similar problems? We'll drill down on some challenges or things that might be worthy of the attention today, but how has it evolved and everyone's attention been in solving problems up until now?

It’s changed hugely and I think the level of the sophistication over some of the conversations has obviously increased. When you are first starting to talk about these new materials and you tell people that you want to build 10-storey apartment buildings out of timber, they look at you like you're crazy and you start to explain it and you start to show pictures of the products and how it all goes together and people sort of get it. You sort of talk about it as being this IKEA kit of parts or tilt up timber, so replacing precast concrete with timber. So, you kind of naturally have to get the points across by making analogies with other materials and things like that. And so people start to understand it. I think we've seen a lot of more nuance in the discussion in the last five to 10 years as people start to get more familiar with the material and start to understand how to design it, how to treat it, how to manufacture it, where some of those sweet spots are, where it works well, where it doesn't work so well.

(06:03):

So, I look at fire as an example and we often talk about these big massive sections and you just design it to char rates and the temperature at its predictable rates and that provides the fire protection At a kind of basic level that's somewhat true, but when you start to get into discussions around fire dynamics and self-extinguishment and there's a lot more kind nuance that goes into those fire engineering discussions than just kind char rates. So, I think we are obviously still kind of new in this space and that discussion's maturing, but it certainly kind of changed thought in the last five to 10 years, which is great to see it becoming more and more accepted and more and more well known in the industry.

Adam Jones (06:57):

It's interesting that we are new, but there's so much nuance it seems and I've noticed, I know you'd probably be the same, without putting words in your mouth, but a lot of people who are experts consider themselves as beginners in this space, you know what I mean? Those I feel like who don't consider themselves a beginners are the opposite. I don't know if it's a thing I've noticed in the industry itself and maybe a beginner's mindset being part of the toolkit. What are your thoughts on that?

Nick Hewson (07:26):

Definitely. I definitely think there's a lot more to it than people realise. I talk about these eye opening moments in my career and I'd spent year years as a structural engineer and started to specialise in mass timber and thought I knew a lot about it. And then moving to the supply side and coming on board as a supplier at XLam, you had this sort of epiphany moment where you realise actually it's a lot more complicated than maybe I realised. And there's a different kind of lens that you view things over when you are in that manufacturing side to maybe when you're in the design side and understanding that complete journey from seedling to log to materials coming into the factory, how that's all manufactured, how it's put together, all these big macro elements and the micro elements of adhesives and how you prepare the timber before you glue it and the quality assurance and all that sort of really, really fine detail that you don't get experience in a consultancy.

(08:37):

And similarly, then going from XLam to Viridi and going to get much more exposure to that manufacturing value-add construction side of it and all the other products that go alongside the timber and how they all interact with it. You start to realise that matrix of interactions and things become so much more complicated and there's so much more to juggle. So, I'm a big advocate for designers and the likes to take any opportunity they can to visit manufacturers, to visit sites, to spend a lot of time. I talk about some of the best learning I ever had was going to the original kind of XLam factory in New Zealand and seeing some projects that we'd had a hand in go through the factory and seeing where the bottlenecks were and where the people were struggling to keep up with production because some of the detailing was fussy or it was taking a lot of time to manufacture certain details. So, I think that that whole kind of DfMA perspective I think is absolutely critical to success and I think say that number of factors that play into that are so huge and I’m still learning new things about it every day. So, it's incredibly rewarding, but it is a challenging thing to try to balance all that.

Adam Jones (10:13):

Yeah. You mentioned something like connection detail might cause bottlenecks in the factory and ultimately drive cost up in one way or another in that project or all projects has cost models developed from a supplier's point of view. And there's so many of those little things like, but are we setting ourselves up for projects or how can we set ourselves up? Because pretty much every profession I have on the podcast, they want to be on the meeting at first. You know what I mean? Like you say to an acoustics, an installer, the supplier, the engineer…is that what we should do or should there be more of a timber generalist who sort of touches on all of them? How should we best set ourselves up to achieve project success from that point of view?

Nick Hewson (11:05):

It’s a really good question because I think we're wrestling with it as a business on a number of projects and I will say there's no one solution to everything. Every project will have sort of unique drivers. Where I see the value in my experience and what we're trying to offer through Arboralis is to particularly getting on board at that early stage and help to plug some of the gaps and some of that understanding that that sort of born out of the decade plus of experience working in this space and knowing where some of those areas of conflict between different disciplines and how to balance some of the demands of acoustics, and fire, and structure and being able hone in on some of those key areas and say there's a big amount of cost or risk or something in these particular areas, so let's focus on these. Let's try and solve these.

(12:15):

And sometimes getting the right team on board, getting the right engineers, fire engineers, acoustic consultants is really good. I think also offering advice in that space, just off my experience and sometimes when we've got a early stage project and it can be a lot of money to get a full team of consultants on board to work through some very preliminary concepts, that's absolutely where I think there's some space for more of a timber generalist to support in there and try to hone in on those solutions early and then bring in other consultants and stuff down the track. So certainly, seeing some interest from clients in that space, trying to help them at the early days and set the project up in the right way.

Adam Jones (13:14):

And we've got a lot of the consultants like fire, acoustic, structure, sustainability, and I know this is a topic that you've spoken about at a recent conference you're quite interested in, but I don't really see any moisture or durability consultants on the team. So, tell us about this issue and how important is it and everything like that?

Nick Hewson (13:40):

You Know… now I'm somewhat independent from suppliers and things. I'm trying to take a little bit of a lead here. I think we've definitely been sleeping on moisture and durability a bit in the industry. I think you know there's a already big focus on fire and fire compliance and testing and things early days, particularly as we were trying to forge ahead and sort of build those early mass timber buildings. The reality I look at it to say, well, the chances of there being fire and the building of significant volume, that significant intensity that it's going to cause a kind of really significant issue is so infinitesimally small, but there's a hundred percent chance that it's going to rain on your building.

(14:35):

There's some studies out of it's the University of Sydney or Sydney Uni…it was talking about the apartment buildings that we built in the last 20 years in Australia. And the statistic was something they thought somewhere between 70 to 90% of apartment buildings built in the last 20 years had a leak somewhere, whether it's in a roof terrace or a roof or a bathroom or something. So, it's not an if case we're going to have a leak at some point in a building and it's a when really. So, I think we need to acknowledge the fact that a timber building, if there is a leak or some water issues with it, the consequences of that are potentially larger than if it's potentially a concrete building. So, we need to have an appropriate response to that. And I'm a very big advocate for a very, very robust approach to timber and moisture.

(15:42):

And as you say, there is no kind of moisture durability consultant yet. The way that the construction industry is going, everything becomes more and more specialised and more and more professions start to appear to fill in these gaps. And maybe that is something that happens in the future, but it is something that I think is currently slipping through the gaps a bit. There's no really clear consultant, I think that sort of bears responsibility for it. So, it often, it's often the case that it gets passed a bit down the line and everyone just tries to cover themselves with a specification or a note or something in a drawing and it gets left to the builder often or the installer to try to manage that. But I think there's definitely better ways to be doing that.

Adam Jones (16:37):

Yeah, yeah. So I mean just to drill down further on that responsibilities, how does that go through from supply through to installation and how could it sit in terms of who maybe not who using the word should might not be the word, but who's probably best placed to take responsibility for each step there and what sort of plans can be in place, like practical things that teams can do to set themselves up right here?

Nick Hewson (17:07):

Yeah, I think look, to me it should start from the client. The client needs to be, when they're considering a timber building, they need to be putting that in their requests for tender from their consultants that this is a focus. And I think if it's a layclient who hasn't necessarily done a timber building before, then it's probably incumbent on the design team to sort of back brief them and say that this is something that we think needs to be included and allowed for. So, you know we are going to allow for a specific process to address this. And I think it probably sits somewhere between the architect and the engineer, the structural engineer I should say, and also the facade building envelope type consultant as well. So, what I'm trying to advocate for is in the same way that we take a safety and design approach for safety, we do the moisture and design approach.

(18:10):

So, we take a systematic risk assessment approach, and we look at the specific details, particularly those high-risk areas. So, I'm thinking roofs, balconies, wet areas, those sorts of areas and say what's our response to this? So, what are we reliant on to protect that particular element and what's the backup if that's going to fail? So, I think we've been quite reliant on, I call a single-point of failure protection to the timber. So, it's some sort of membrane system that's applied to a floor beneath the wet area, and then there's tiles and showers, bath, whatever on top. But if that membrane for whatever reason has a defect in it or if it fails, those things aren't designed to last 60 years, the same as the structural life of the building. So, what happens when that fails? So where does the water go?

(19:19):

Does it sit on top of the timber? or is it allowed to drain? Is there a sort of secondary mechanism there to help mitigate that risk? So, I think the way that we need to approach those areas is to always be allowing for at least to two levels of protection. That could be what I call passive measures. So, membranes, paint on or applied, or in the case of glulam columns or something, a coating or a treatment or some level of protection that you place on the timber. And then you have active measures like moisture monitoring, whether that's embedded sensors or a regular maintenance regime and allowing for drainage. I think if you do get any kind of water leakage and overflow, one of the many benefits of CLT is it's a very solid monolithic sort of construction… high performance when it comes to air tightness and things as well.

(20:33):

But that sort of works against us when it comes to water. So, if you have a floor or that's got a membrane on that's leaks, it is quite hard for the water then to find its way out if you haven't specifically designed it to be able to do that. So, I've just been aware of projects both overseas and in Australia where they have had challenges where membranes haven't been installed properly or there've been leaks and the water can get onto the CLT and if it is not able to drain, then it can stay there for a long time. It takes a long time for water to work its way through a 200 thick CLT floor slab. So, it can be years before you start to know that there's a problem. And having those secondary levels of protection I think is going to be absolutely essential.

Adam Jones (21:31):

Mmhmm…And a lot of these things, they're design issues and challenges that might everyone solves again and again and again from project to project, the same sort of issue. What's your thoughts on the development of the idea of kit-of-parts design methodology? It's been there since the start, the old IKEA flat park, you design it once and then you can just scale it out. Whole business models have been applied on this. Where are we at on this whole ideology and are you seeing it improve or starting to be used or there's certain things blocking this?

Nick Hewson (22:08):

I think it is definitely something that we need to improve on. I think we are seeing certain clients, particularly larger government clients that are looking to try to standardise designs and delivery mechanisms for some of their projects and they have the capacity to solve some of these challenges and sort of roll them out and create these robust measures. But we're still at a stage where a lot of buildings are going to have to be one-offs custom design, there's a new design team on every one, even a team that maybe had experience, you can't guarantee the same people that works on the last one, are going to work on the new one. So, it is often, it's often learning again from scratch, every project. I think the timber industry needs to collaborate more, creating libraries of robust details. Certainly, the UK have shown up in this space in developing some of these sorts of industry-standard details that have been peer-reviewed, that have been used, that have been shown to be robust and things.

(23:26):

So, I think we need to do a better job at collating some of those. I think a lot of people are, particularly the early adopters, they've probably invested a lot of time and effort into coming up with different ways of dealing with these issues and developing details and strategies. And everyone's always reluctant to share those learnings because they've invested a lot of time to get there. But I think collectively as an industry, certainly this moisture space, we need to start collating some of that stuff and to making that more easily available, particularly for those new adopters and less experienced teams because we can't afford to wait for everyone to make mistakes to learn this stuff. We need to do that collectively.

Adam Jones (24:21):

Well said. But yeah, Nick, I've probably asked this you a few times, but what do you see as the future of the industry? Where is it going, you know blue sky? What's the positive future that we can look forward to from your perspective?

Nick Hewson (24:37):

Yeah, I think certainly in the moisture space, I definitely think there are some really, really smart products coming out and really smart solutions to this. I don't think it's, I try not to be too doom and gloom with it. There are challenges…

Adam Jones (24:53):

Very realistic. You need a signal, you need to point to something that if it's overlooked, it's overlooked. So, it's awesome.

Nick Hewson (25:02):

Yeah, I think are, like I said, there are newer systems, newer solutions coming online. There are certainly some businesses that have a lot more solutions in those sort of value-add products for CLT, I think I like to see the industry itself and some of the suppliers take a little bit more of a leading role in recommending and offering some of those services just to help protect their products. And so, I think there's definitely work to be done there and there's a lot of really good information out there, a lot of good membrane suppliers, timber treatments, coatings and that sort of stuff. And those guys will happily talk to you and provide you advice and things on that. I think it's incumbent on engineers and architects and things to be having those conversations and make sure that their designs and specifications are robust enough to deal with the sort of weather that Australia can sometimes throw at these projects.

(26:14):

So, I think there's definite positive aspects there, but I think in general, I'm always really keen to sort of normalise mass timber to a point where it is we don't talk about mass timber buildings, we don't talk about them being a specialised, unusual, or somehow risky. It just becomes part of the construction language. So, we build a building, does it make sense to use timber here? If it does, then let's use it. Let's put more timber into more buildings. Let's build hybrids. Let's use it in the right places. We don't need to be particularly precious if it's mass timber or lightweight framing. I think there's certainly some incredible opportunities, I think to combine some of those together if we can get the two sides of the supply chain talking to each other. But yeah, I really just want mass timber in particular to just sort of be this material that everyone's kind of comfortable and familiar with using. And it doesn't need to be seen as a complex or risky element. It's the right material for the right job, which is always something I've been trying to preach as an engineer.

Adam Jones (27:46):

A hundred percent. Well, it's a great note to end it on. Nick, if people want to find out more about yourself and a, where should they go?

Nick Hewson (27:54):

Yep, you can follow me on LinkedIn. I'm usually a pretty prolific poster on LinkedIn. So yeah, search Nick Hewson on LinkedIn, or you can visit my website https://www.arboralis.com.au/. That's A-R-B-O-R-A-L-I-S. That's actually Latin for relating to trees, so that's why.

Adam Jones (28:15):

Actually I never knew. I never asked you that. There you go. It's a nice one.

Nick Hewson (28:20):

So yeah, so please get in touch if you want to talk anything related to timber, anything related to moisture. Always very passionate and interested to hear about experiences in that space. Yeah, so thank you.

Adam Jones (28:35):

Thank you, Nick. That was amazing. Cheers.

Nick Hewson (28:37):

Alright, thanks Adam.