Ep 146 - Scaling up mass timber with Jeremy Church

Adam Jones (00:44):

Awesome. Yeah, well I'll get into it and we'll see where the convo takes us. So Jeremy, thanks so much for coming on the podcast. It has been a while. I'm surprised that I haven't had you on the podcast yet. But yeah, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself, who you are and what you do?

Jeremy Church (01:02):

Yeah, well thanks Adam. As I said, it's been a long journey to get me on the line. I think our first introduction personally was probably six or seven years ago I think was when we first crossed paths. You were working old solutions at the time and I was doing something else. But yeah, my background has been instructional engineering my pretty much my whole career. And then the last six or seven years I've sort of really been focusing on the NG wool product side of things. I've got a bit of a natural connection there to the timber industry through my father actually. So that was what actually or originally drew me into the industry and I've been active in it the last really focusing on the manufacturing side of things for the last six or so years. And now I currently sit at Timber Link inside their next timber business looking after cross laminated timber and glue laminated timber projects. Predominantly got a team of people working alongside me helping deliver and execute projects. And we've been in operation for a year now. So it's been a pretty challenging first 12 months, but very rewarding nonetheless. So I'm operating in the capacity of general manager technical and sales, so out market, but also to deliver projects too.

Adam Jones (02:24):

It's amazing, man. So it's been one year in operation, but you've been there a little bit longer. Tell us about the journey. What was it like beforehand and at the high level, what has the first year been like? And I think implicit in what you said before is quite humble. You do have a really strong brand and reputation already in the AMZ region.

Jeremy Church (02:45):

Well I, I've actually been with Timber Link for three and a half years. So they approached me three and a half years to look after the technical side of the next timber business. It was a new journey for Timber Link. So Timber Link's been as an organization operating in the software manufacturing space for the 12 or so years. We've actually acquired some preexisting assets in Tasmania and South Australia and focused predominantly on SA software timber. They realized some time ago that they needed to diversify their offering, look at better ways to get more value out of the log and the resource that they had. Wood plastic composite is another part of the business that we've focused on from then that helps certainly with our sustainability angle of the business and how do we use that resource and that fiber a bit more effectively to get value from.

(03:41):

But what they brought me onto for three years ago was to look after the next timber business. So that whole first two years really for working at Timberlake was around getting our team match fit, getting them ready, getting systems and processes in place and getting a lot of the testing and r and d underway. So when we did turn the actual machines on last year, we were in a position to sort of hit the ground running. So there was some good foresight by Timber Link really to really invest in the people up front. We had sales engineers working within the business before we'd even made product. We had caddies working in the business, developing systems, testing systems, development processes. So having the whole team come along the journey for those, certainly through the infancy of getting a plant up and running and seeing them hit their straps now is absolutely truly rewarding. It's probably one of the most rewarding things of the entire journey.

Adam Jones (04:39):

Yeah, that's incredible. And tell us a little bit more about the team and the culture building and the importance of processes and everything like that from the very start to actually set yourself up for success and what are the dividends being paid off now from that?

Jeremy Church (04:55):

Yeah, so as I said, we've been in operations for really, we delivered our first project at the very, very start of this year is actually when the first truck actually left with cross Lanette timber product on it going into a project. And we've had some project successes for the last nine months. We've delivered a factory of the future in South Australia, which people will be familiar with. That was probably a real flagship project for us, which is quite interesting because engaged in sort of early on with the client on that one, them knowing full well that we were getting a plant up and running. So it's not only about developing our people, it's also about developing relationships with customers and clients and consultants and giving them the confidence that they can go with a company like Timberlake. Certainly in those early days when you don't necessarily have a lot of runs on the board. And a lot of that comes down to communication trust and real.

Adam Jones (05:52):

Sorry Jeremy, your microphone's just turned really quiet a second ago.

Jeremy Church (05:57):

Is it better now?

Adam Jones (06:00):

That's really weird. One second.

Jeremy Church (06:04):

Can you hear me at all?

Adam Jones (06:08):

I can hear you, but it's really quiet. It's going really quiet.

Jeremy Church (06:11):

You change my audio setting if you like to.

Adam Jones (06:13):

That's better. Whatever he's done. You can see he's better. Yeah,

Jeremy Church (06:18):

Didn't do anything. As I saying, taking people on the journey, it's taking customers

Adam Jones (06:26):

On the journey. It's done it again now.

Jeremy Church (06:36):

Same system headphones.

Adam Jones (06:38):

So when you put the microphone down, does it automatically turn it down?

Jeremy Church (06:42):

It should be fine. Alright, here we go. Is that better?

Adam Jones (06:47):

Yeah, that seems better.

Jeremy Church (06:48):

That seems better. Okay, cool. So where do we get to Adam

Adam Jones (06:52):

Factory? You have to about the factory of the future, then you would talk and went into other things about people or something.

Jeremy Church (07:00):

Oh that's right. So as I said, for us it's about really taking people on the journey, taking our customers on the journey. And so a factor of the future is one of our real successes this year delivering which we delivered or a couple of months ago now. But we've been engaged in that process, in that project for a reasonable period of time prior. So working with the contractor and the consultants and during that process them fully knowing full well that we're still in the process of commissioning equipment, getting a plant up and running and bringing them on the journey was really paramount in actually us being able to deliver that. So having customers and clients that have the confidence to back you in those situations has been ultimate paramount to our success really in the first sort of 12 months really. And then so that's developing relationships externally but also developing relationships internally and getting team all singing from the same songbook has been absolutely critical.

(08:10):

One thing we've been really intentional with when we've been sort of developing the team has been around not necessarily having a sales and operational team focusing on their individual roles. Ultimately the overall success of the project is going to be marked by us being able to deliver on time and in fall. So it's no point having projects coming down the pipeline that we know we can't execute or having projects coming down the pipeline and overburdening the operational team. It's about us all being on exactly the same page and making sure that the ultimate goal is getting the project out the door on time. And the sales team, even once the sales team that the contract's been executed, they hang around that whole project lifecycle from where to go. And myself particularly, I'm involved from the start to the finish and now we've got sales technical and project execution all sitting under the one umbrella and that's proved to be quite fruitful for us. So we'll continue to build on that, but at the end of the day it's a hundred percent a team game. There's absolutely no question about it. And there's no room for egos or anything like that. It's just get down and get it done.

Adam Jones (09:26):

Yeah, that's it. And as you said, it's all about getting quite knocked out the door on time, on site, but there's so much that goes into that and there's so much information. So it's sort of like how do you feed data, so to speak from the factory? Where is a bottleneck that's produced all the way to the front end sales cycle to inform design? Do we have a well established path in the industry yet for that sort of thing or do you internally look at that sort of stuff?

Jeremy Church (10:04):

Yeah, so our business model is, so we don't do engineering design and we've been abundantly clear on that. That's something that we, that's not where we can offer the most value is probably with where we see our strengths play. So our strengths are really in assisting with the design, assisting the designs to make good design decisions initially giving them some guidance and some recommendations and some limitations that they can work within or some parameters they can work within for them to actually complete the design. The best value that we can offer is giving that upfront advice. We will bring the caddies into the conversation quite early and start to look at penalization really even with the designs, not even that well developed, but really completing that life cycle of input. And then we'll actually take the design and we'll do all the documentation in Melbourne here and then we'll send that to the factory.

(11:10):

But we also try and get the input from the factory operationally as we're actually doing the actual documentation. So we are asking them based on the complexity you seeing in front of you here, how long do you think this is going to do? What do you think this is going to do, the production program? And so we've got quite a really good feedback loop there and it's something that we've been consciously building over the last three to six months and something we'll continue to build. But that's where the connectivity between the sales activities and the operational activities and the project execution deliveries are really important. And I won't lie, there's been challenges. We've been on the in operation really for 12 months. We haven't got everything but one thing we are is really open-minded to changing and improving things. So that's one of the things that keeps you coming back for more is like, how can I do this better next time? How have I contributed to this thing not going as successfully as what it could have done? And that's that whole mentality of taking accountability for your involvement in the process and we're continue to improve on all that capabilities as we mature as a business.

Adam Jones (12:27):

Yep. It's amazing and it's taking on accountability is sometimes not just in the timber industry but just in construction. It's not always, it's amazing to have your reputation as a part of that on projects and putting your hand up when lessons can be learned. So is that a unique culture that you're building there?

Jeremy Church (12:50):

I don't think it's unique. I think it comes down to the individuals more than anything. Every industry's got it. Every industry's got the ability to do it. It's something that's probably ingrained in myself and my team directly that we always look at things like that. As I said, when things don't go well, it's the first thing you should be doing is looking in the mirror and saying, well what did I do to contribute to that? What can I do differently next time? That's the way that all businesses really should be operating in my view. But I've been involved in construction for, it's my whole adult career, so probably the best part of 20 years really giving away my age now. But so consulting and engineering design and working with contractors and things like that, it's, it can be a pretty challenging space to work. You're talking reasonable amounts of money that people are investing upfront and you don't want to make errors, but it's about not shying away from them, owning them, communicating, communication can't be underestimated I think.

Adam Jones (14:01):

Yeah, totally. So for a project to be successful, what are the things that maybe from two points of view, one is from a factor, three's point of view, if someone's looking at throughput, how do you achieve that? And then maybe they're linked from a project point of view as well. If you're influencing early, what are the things you're looking at for project success?

Jeremy Church (14:26):

Success is an interesting metric. We'll probably get a little bit philosophically Adam, but I don't want to go down that path. But I suppose the question is how do you actually define success and success may look different for each different project. Like this one project comes to mind that I'm thinking of right now, which was ultimately at the end of it, it was a very successful project. It went together absolutely seamlessly, but it was a real nightmare. So I think the things that we are looking for for a project, if we actually to say, okay, what would success look like for us? It'd be something that we can produce at a high volume, at a high rate, really improve our manufacturing throughput is probably one thing we would probably measure ourselves on because ultimately that's going to come down to the profitability of the project for us.

(15:24):

So if we look at that from those metrics point of view, the things that we look at, are there not too many different varieties of panels in the project? Are we trying to make similar billets repeatedly? So we're trying to get a lot of repetition in there. And then when it comes down to connections and joints and things like that, how many operations can we do from the single side of the panel? Ideally we do all of them from one side and panel flippings, probably the last ones we're trying to avoid as many times we have to actually flip a panel over to either do additional operations to it or flip it over to go and apply some vapor per removal membrane or some other value add items that we might be including in the process. So those are probably the two things. And the things that we probably look at mostly from a design perspective and what we try to try and feed that back into the design is even things like, okay, what sort of joints are we actually looking at doing on this project?

(16:25):

Are we doing lap joints and yet yes we are doing lap joints. Okay, well how wide are we making those? Can we make those a little bit narrower because reduce the amount of waste or how many passes it needs to take us on the sand to actually cut those joints, spine plates a better option. Those are the sort of design decisions that we sort of tease out those questions with the contractor. But a lot of those decisions aren't necessarily made by us either. So some of the decisions aren't even made by the head contractor. They actually may be made by the installer as to what their preferences are and there may be a whole host of difference reasons as to why they might choose one over the other. There may be engineering reasons as to why they choose, but I think it's more about asking the questions and asking the right questions and then getting to a resolution that is somewhat sensible. And there may be instances where you can't have a preferred connection for whatever reason, engineering reason or whatever, but you may not need to apply it everywhere. So the days where you do standard details completely over the job, is that really necessary? What's the value in doing that? Those are the sort of questions that you really need to sort tease out through that design process

Adam Jones (17:41):

For that. Is there a mutual incentive to actually drive the manufacturing throughput? I mean does that feed back and inform and reduce costs at the end of the day for the project as well for them, for their hip pocket? It is one of those things, it's sort of like everyone incentivized to reduce costs because that's the end of the day the thing that's probably the biggest accelerator.

Jeremy Church (18:06):

Yeah, well I think the biggest incentive is at the end of the day we're trying to, in most instances operating sort of on a just in time model where we possibly can, there's times where you might not be able to because of you maybe be delivering to storage or things like that. But where you are delivering on a just in time basis, certainty around delivery is probably the most important thing for a contractor. So if you can rationalize the design a little bit and improve the throughput through the factory and then be able to be somewhat certain around when you're actually going to be able to finally execute the delivery of that job to the actual customer at the end of the day, that's got an intrinsic value to 'em. So when you have projects that are very complicated or complex to whether they be a machine or manufacturer or whatever it is, you are just creating a high level of uncertainty there.

(19:06):

Which means, okay, well what do we need to do now? Do we need to factor in more time when we actually going to be able to deliver it to you? Do we need to delay delivering it to you? So there's some things there that are probably a little bit nuanced, which on the surface aren't necessarily really super clear as to what the actual value is. But for us it's about as much throughput as we can because if we're delaying manufacturing or slowing down production because of projects, then there's an inherent lost opportunity there for us. So in an abundant market with the heap of projects floating around, you want to be able to produce and process as many projects as you possibly can, but if you've got projects that are very, very slow to produce and slowing down throughput and that then there's lost opportunity there that you're leaving on the table. So that's why there's a priority for us to get them through as fast as what we possibly can.

Adam Jones (19:59):

And zooming on that, one of the things you mentioned there is delaying projects and the implications that has, if you've got certainty on a shift even for you or even for the contractor and that has to change and all of that. Is that where some, I guess the costs are for you guys but also for the project teams? And maybe it's something that's new to some teams like coming into mass timber and not realizing that you need to freeze the specification or the drawings and stuff like that. I remember when I joined xla, I remember one of the first documents I read was you wrote, so if you don't mind me sharing this, you wrote it was about one of their design guides and if it moves, it's sort of like a plane ticket where maybe share that analogy.

Jeremy Church (20:50):

I don't think I wrote that.

Adam Jones (20:52):

Someone said it was you.

Jeremy Church (20:53):

That was actually Gary Caulfield's analogy actually was about the plane ticket analogy. I think I was the thing, I was just the guy on the end of the keyboard pulling that together. I actually think Peter Evans actually pulled that whole document together with quite frank, but certainly the, do

Adam Jones (21:10):

You maybe elaborate on the analogy in any

Jeremy Church (21:12):

Case? Yeah, well the analogy that we discussed quite readily in my past career was that somewhat manufacturing, somewhat like a plane ticket, like the plane is leaving with you on it or not, and if you miss your flight, you're going to need to rebook another ticket, but you're not going to get a refund for your ticket essentially is what it was. So I think that sort of held true back then. We don't tend to operate like that and that's probably based on some of my past experiences that you can work with the best of intentions to have documentation and drawings ready at a particular point in time. But the reality is that they never are like they always drift. And so to be completely rigid around some of those dates, particularly when you're tendering on a package, it may only be 80% complete is quite challenging.

(22:14):

And so we don't necessarily operate exactly like that, but what we will do is we'll give an indicative manufacturing time as to when the actual projects is actually started. So when we actually get engaged, we'll say, okay, this is you want on this date, and we actually work back from that day and say, well, based on that we actually need your drawings finalized and signed off by this date. But that's where we'll lean in and we'll try and really drag it through to actually get it to a point where we can actually start to work with it because there's a little value of us sitting on our hands just sitting there waiting for it to be ready. As I said, for us it's about getting the project through the manufacturing cycle and if we have to lean in a little bit to drag it through, then that's what we'll do. Because ultimately, as I said before, it's about the customer and being able to deliver to them in a timeframe that's suitable for their construction site. But they also need to understand and appreciate that we can't just wait forever. There's a point of time where we've actually got to drop the hammer and make something because we can't just sit there doing nothing because the most expensive factory you'll have is one sitting there not doing

Adam Jones (23:24):

Anything. That's it. A hundred percent true. And one of the holy grails for some is if there is some commodity type specification or modularity or whatever it might be where when there is an empty shift you can just pump out a certain type of panel, which adds a lot of value to some certain projects. I mean, do you see things evolving in that direction and it's been a holy grail, but yeah, what are your thoughts on that?

Jeremy Church (23:50):

Yeah, I think the commoditizing of CLT particularly is, the biggest challenge with that is that the elements that you're producing are so big and can be potentially so thick that you might be looking to process something that's 400 millimeters in thickness while not everybody's going to have a saw around that's going to be able to cut a 400 millimeter thick panel or even anything over a hundred millimeters becomes a bit of a struggle, but without having to flip it over and do something else to it. I think the one unique value proposition that we have as an organization though is that our actual manufacturing facility is combined and so we actually have the opportunity to produce glue Lamb and cross LA tib are on the same manufacturing line. So in periods where we may not be working on a project, we can start to build inventory for glue lamb for example, or do some other bits and pieces or do some RD and things like that.

(24:48):

So that's where we have the ability to sort of flex in our production capability. We're in a bit of a unique position like that, but also it also can work against you too, because when you're working through a project, you've still got commitments to produce glam as well. So trying to work those two into the same equation can be a little bit challenging, but, but I'm certainly on the lookout for some opportunities to commoditize probably some of those thinner CLT elements where we can, I think there's some opportunities there, but yeah, it's still going to take a bit of work.

Adam Jones (25:24):

Amazing man. So we're getting to the end of the podcast. So tell us about what do you see as the future of our industry? What are the big needle movers? What are the big risks on the horizon? Anything like that? So just to open question for you.

Jeremy Church (25:38):

Yeah, well I think if we look at, you've sort of put me on the spot here a little bit, Adam, but that's all part of the game I suppose.

Adam Jones (25:45):

It's not everyone you can put on the spot, but you can, some guests, you can sort of just go with it and you're one of

Jeremy Church (25:53):

Thanks mate. Appreciate that. Well, I think if we look at what the US market's done, I think we've seen a lot of growth in the US market and I think their latest stats are they're tipping double the growth in the next five years. So that market there is on the output trajectory. And I would like to see something like that happen in the Australian and New Zealand context as well. I think what's going to need to move to change, that's probably going to be a bit of an overhaul with some of our N-C-C-D-D-S requirements or compliance codes there. So I think that's going to be one of the, if we can get some changes in there, particularly around maybe some prescriptive fire performance, I think that'll be one thing that'll probably shift the needle a little bit. So I'm hopeful that we can get some traction in that space and we're working in the background with some things there with Andrew Dunn and that, so hopefully we can get that to move.

(26:50):

I think the other thing too is, and something that you've been working on feverishly in the background, Adam, I know is really making design a lot more accessible to the generalists out there. So not being so reliant on only a few designers to be able to design in timber, I think making it a bit more accessible with design tools like CFT Toolbox is a great initiative and a great example and something the industry's really been crying out for a long time. So that's another thing. But the other thing too, I think is we're seeing a lot more collaboration more broadly across the industry. As I said, I've been in the industry for maybe six, seven years or thereabouts, particularly in this timber space. And that's one thing I've always been a big advocate for is around knowledge sharing, lessons learned, and really just working with each other a lot more collaboratively.

(27:49):

And I've seen a lot of it, and I think it's even changed a lot in the last five years particularly. And that's the one thing that I find so welcoming and embracing about this actual sector itself is the amount that people are willing to share, not only from an n gable products point of view, we're starting to see it within our business here now with sort of safety and things like that. Looking at talking to our competitors and what they're doing from a safety angle, sustainability, the list sort of goes on. So they're probably the three big things that I think are really going to move the needle a bit. You and I have spoken at length about a number of things, and one thing we've always said, which has really resonated with me is really around growing the pie and a rising tide raises all ships, as they say. And so that's one thing that I would like that to be my legacy, would be to see this industry grow and flourish and become bigger and better and healthier than what it was when I picked up. That's where I hope it goes.

Adam Jones (28:55):

Likewise, Jeremy, what an amazing answer as the second last episode on the Timber Talks, if people want to find out more about yourself, they want to get in touch for any projects, where should they go?

Jeremy Church (29:08):

Well, you can jump on LinkedIn. You can find me at LinkedIn. My phone always rings, but yeah, just contact, reach out to me at Timber Link on Next Timber and I'm more than happy to talk about whatever it is that people want to talk about. I'm pretty open, pretty happy to share my knowledge and understanding of my view on things. So by all means, reach out and get in touch.

Adam Jones (29:32):

Awesome mate. We'll leave it there.

Jeremy Church (29:34):

Thanks mate.